- Trembling Before G-d
- Selichot (myjewishlearning.com)
Tuesday, September 27, 2005
Jews in Alabama, Episode #10
Our gayest podcast ever -- no, really!! We discuss homosexuality and Judaism with our good friend Bruce. We talk about Selichot, the film Trembling Before G-d, halachic prohibitions on homosexuality (and if they apply to lesbians), and Bruce tells the story of how he came to Judaism. 35 minutes, 38 seconds.
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13 comments:
I was a lot more hopeful after seeing Trembling Before G-d than you guys appeared to be. The Orthodox folks in the movie are refusing to hide anymore and making the rabbis think about things they have never had to grapple with before. And as you guessed, the reason why other branches weren't addressed is because not many of the people featured would consider practicing anything other than Orthodoxy. The movie site's resources section has lots of support groups, and I am hopeful we will soon see, in the next few decades, the emergence of a progressive and gay-friendly offshoot of Orthodoxy, where they care about halacha but are not also fundamentalist right-wing on everything.
And before you guys get too comfy representing Conservatism as a wonderful haven for Gays and Lesbians, there is no Conservative sanction of gay marrage or of gays and lesbians being rabbis. My g/f's lesbian cousin and her wife are both rabbis, ordained and married as Reconstructionists. They would not be able to be married Conservative or be ordained Conservative (unless they kept their sexuality quiet) . You can find some Conservative rabbis who take a strong stand arguing for gay marriage and rabbis, but it's definitely not a straightforward position that most Conservative officials, let alone average members, endorse, and no Conservative organization holds this position.
Damn it, I am thinking way too much recently about this political and religious stuff.
Bruce was a great first guest!
Interesting podcast for me, as a lesbian Jew preparing for rabbinical school... I couldn't begin to comment on the actual content, but I enjoyed hearing your perspectives on these topics!
By the way, one of the reasons some people speculate that laws against male homosexuality are more strict than those against lesbianism is because it's implied that the rule being broken is the wasting of seed. For women, nothing is "wasted" by being with another woman. That's only one of the many many interpretations, but I just thought I'd share.
Great comments....
Lee--
You're right about Conservative Judaism. But one step at a time here. I think that most Conservative shuls are accepting of gay and lesbian members, even if they won't marry them or ordain them. So, it's a "walk before you can fly" sort of thing. Certainly, you're not going to see Conservative Jews holding up posters proclaiming that homosexuality is an abomination.
In fact, the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism keeps quiet on the issue of individual clergy marrying a same-sex couple. They don't approve it, they don't forbid it. So a lot is left to the discretion of the individual rabbi or cantor.
Your optimistic view about a gay-friendly branch of Orthodoxy is one that I really don't share. I hope you're right. But in my eyes, Orthodox Judaism hasn't changed much over the last several hundred years. I don't see this change happening in my lifetime.
Further to the left, of course, Reform Judaism will ordain gay clergy and hold same-sex weddings. Reform Judaism is much more socially-conscious; if their services didn't remind me so much of church, I think I could be a Reform Jew.
Rebecca--
An interesting coincidence that you and I just starting corresponding yesterday, considering the subject matter of Episode #10!! Which rabbinical school are you planning to attend?
Good point about the "wasting of seed." That probably has a lot to do with it. But it's such a (to my eyes) "Catholic" point of view.
The only purpose of sex is procreation? What about couples that get married in their 60s or 70s? What about couples where one partner is infertile? Should the other partner get a divorce and find someone else he/she can have kids with?
And, as we said on the show, women get short shrift in a lot of the Torah. So it's not all that surprising that lesbianism is ignored.
Good luck on your Hebrew homework!!
Bruce--
You made for a great first guest!!!
Hey Guys- There is a siren in Jerusalem when Shabbat begins. It's a low pitch not like when there is a war. There is one in the Haredi town next to ours that I can hear if it's quiet. When we lived in Jerusalem sometimes the Moslem calls to prayer at 5 am were so loud I thought they were praying in my living room.
There is only one thing you need women for in Judaism- to have children. It is a very patriarchal religion and I wonder what books were left out of the Torah by the men deciding things.
Orthodox Jews do not follow the literal word of the Torah all the time. I believe Samaritans do. So in the case of homosexuals they could find a way around it if they wanted to. Like timers for electrical stuff on Shabbat.
If you take the Torah only literally or only as allegory you miss some of the beauty. Its not an either or thing. And we ALL pick and choose.
Carol, you are so unfair! Women are for far more than kids. Who is going to make the tzimmes? Who is going to make the kugel? Sheesh. And as to men squishing women -- I think the women's wisdom and power was generally labeled superstition or gossip and sent underground...I think a lot of ancient belief and practice kept by women is informally passed down through that sort of thing.
Eric -- As Carol says, and as was stated in Trembling Before God by rabbi Greenberg (the openly Gay Ortho rabbi), there are all sorts of areas where the oral law and halacha modify the written law, and it's pretty much a question of "paradigm shifts" and will...
I agree with you about one step at a time, but I think it works for Orthodox as well as Conservative. I think the idea that Orthodox practice and thought hasn't changed in hundreds of years is one of those classic bubbemayses-- it is obviously not true.
Again, Lee, I hope you're right. For the sake of Orthodoxy and for Judaism in general, I hope you're right. But I'm still going to be stubborn and say "I'll believe it when I see it."
And Carol, fabulous comments. I especially loved this:
"If you take the Torah only literally or only as allegory you miss some of the beauty."
So true!! That's so simple and yet so profound...
Hi "J-I-F"--
Thanks so much for your comments....iPod Nano twins, indeed!! Everyone has crises of identity during the teenage years -- although I didn't have to come out to my parents, I did have to tell them when I converted to Judaism. They did not react well; I imagine it would have been about the same reaction if I told them I was gay!! Fortunately, they've come around.
Keep listening -- I doubt we'll ever be able to do more than one a week, but you never know!!! And check our links for some other great podcasts -- gotta fill that 4GB Nano!!!
I see what you mean about that being a "Catholic" point of view, but if you're talking about the Orthodox community or if you're talking about the historic writings of the Rabbis, that really IS the only reason to have sex.
I'll be going to the Reconstructionist Rabbinical School (hopefully!). I was raised Conservative, but my beliefs don't match up with that movement at all, although I'm still more comfortable there than with Reform.
Rebecca--
Yeah, but would an Orthodox rabbi (or a Catholic priest) refuse to marry a man and a woman in their 70s?? Clearly, they're not going to be procreating -- but they probably are going to be having sex!! I'm not Orthodox, so I really don't know the answer to this -- most Orthodox Jews are married well before they pass child-bearing age, so maybe it's not much of an issue.
But the idea that sex is for procreation only -- that's just so sad and repressed. Truthfully, it makes sex seem dirty -- like it's something you have to do, only because the end result (kids) is a good one. Again, the whole "sex is a dirty but necessary evil" thing is just SOOOOOO Catholic. I expect Jews to be more sensible about these things.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- I guess this is why I'm not Orthodox!! :)
Good luck with the entire rabbinical school process -- we lived in Philly for two years while Raya got her master's from Gratz College, just down the street and around the corner from RRC. She knew several people going to RRC or planning to go there....quite a few of them lesbians, in fact. We used to joke that she was one of the few hetero women at Gratz! :)
I am finallly all caught up. I listen to three shows today and now everything will be current or at least within a few days. I have been enjoying the show very much. I have found you as a result of Israelisms. I wanted to comment earlier, but I was to far behind.
I'm with you on the Temples of Gaza situation. We look bad cause we knew that is what they would do. Did you think they weren't going to act like animals? They still haven't figured out gravity, when you shoot bullets up in the air, they will come down on top of you.
I joined a Temple for the first time since my Bar Mitzvah(26 now). I was raised Reform but I am going to a Conservative. It's name is Temple Emanu El. So here's another conservative shul with Temple in its name. (The reason I joined a Temple was a result of my Birthright Trip)
Keep them coming.
Chad
Chad--
Many thanks for commenting....we really appreciated listener feedback.
Glad you enjoy the podcast, and have a sweet and happy new year!!
Eric
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